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	<title>Comments on: Reject the prosperity doctrine and be hit with the ugly stick?</title>
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	<link>http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/</link>
	<description>life, faith, and whatever captures me</description>
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		<title>By: Beck</title>
		<link>http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-206</link>
		<dc:creator>Beck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 05:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Love all the thoughts on this topic!

I&#039;ve been reading a little around this lately, trying to weave together my thoughts on environment, social justice, consumerism and what it actually means to be a Christian.  Firstly a secular based book, &quot;Affluenza&quot; by Clive Hamilton and Richard Dennis - well worth a read on rejecting consumerism (or conscious consumerism as they call it) and the idea of downshifting (Hey Mr Howard, I don&#039;t need a plasma TV and new car, a maxed out credit card and unservicable mortgage on a massive house and have to work 80 hours a week for it, all I really want is to be part of a community).  It dispells the myth of the Aussie Battler, where most whom are categorised in this way by politicians during elections can still afford a big TV and to go on holiday every year.  We are already wealthy!  If we spent more time looking at those poorer than us than coveting the things of those richer than us we would be a heck of a lot happier! Though God isn&#039;t mentioned, the book fits well into the Christian ideals of lifting others above the desire for money.

The other &quot;Money and Power&quot; by Jacques Ellul is a fantastic book that I am part way through (like wading through mud with its dense thoughts assulting my pregno-brain at the moment!) which is proving to provide a really really interesting commentry on the role of money in Christianity, including socialism vs capitalism from a Christan perspective (neither are the answer!), wealth in the Old Testament (Abraham, Job and Solomon - can you be righteous and wealthy?), the temptation of wealth and the responsibilities of the wealthy: the duty to continually provide for the poor (no virtue or merit here!).  Maybe the wealthy are judged more closely because they have the means?  Does this mean I can never again brush aside someone asking me for money on the street?

I&#039;m just getting on to the juicy bits about money as a reward or blessing.  The best bit is that the book was originally written in 1954, with an update in 1975 which basically says that things haven&#039;t changed much and the core of the thought is still relevant.  In many ways it&#039;s comforting that this is not a new problem.

So if being a Christian is more than about just waiting for death and eternity (because I want more than that), and God does intervene and bless us from time to time, sometimes deserved and sometimes not, I&#039;m starting to think that I&#039;d prefer the blessing that comes in the form of almost perfectly fitting maternity jeans found in an op-shop, or beautiful conversations with the retired folk who walk their dogs in the park that I track through on my way to work from the bus stop, any sort of connection with people than lots of money (although y&#039;know God winning that Toyota Prius competition would be nice!).  And maybe in 30 more years I&#039;ll be ugly to the prosperity doctriners who can all afford facelifts, but I&#039;m hoping that the joy from living a life where money has no hold over me, with only one master who is loving and good, will be all the beauty that I need.  And who needs money when they have joy anyway?!

Sorry about the waffle.  Had to get it off my chest!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love all the thoughts on this topic!</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been reading a little around this lately, trying to weave together my thoughts on environment, social justice, consumerism and what it actually means to be a Christian.  Firstly a secular based book, &#8220;Affluenza&#8221; by Clive Hamilton and Richard Dennis &#8211; well worth a read on rejecting consumerism (or conscious consumerism as they call it) and the idea of downshifting (Hey Mr Howard, I don&#8217;t need a plasma TV and new car, a maxed out credit card and unservicable mortgage on a massive house and have to work 80 hours a week for it, all I really want is to be part of a community).  It dispells the myth of the Aussie Battler, where most whom are categorised in this way by politicians during elections can still afford a big TV and to go on holiday every year.  We are already wealthy!  If we spent more time looking at those poorer than us than coveting the things of those richer than us we would be a heck of a lot happier! Though God isn&#8217;t mentioned, the book fits well into the Christian ideals of lifting others above the desire for money.</p>
<p>The other &#8220;Money and Power&#8221; by Jacques Ellul is a fantastic book that I am part way through (like wading through mud with its dense thoughts assulting my pregno-brain at the moment!) which is proving to provide a really really interesting commentry on the role of money in Christianity, including socialism vs capitalism from a Christan perspective (neither are the answer!), wealth in the Old Testament (Abraham, Job and Solomon &#8211; can you be righteous and wealthy?), the temptation of wealth and the responsibilities of the wealthy: the duty to continually provide for the poor (no virtue or merit here!).  Maybe the wealthy are judged more closely because they have the means?  Does this mean I can never again brush aside someone asking me for money on the street?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just getting on to the juicy bits about money as a reward or blessing.  The best bit is that the book was originally written in 1954, with an update in 1975 which basically says that things haven&#8217;t changed much and the core of the thought is still relevant.  In many ways it&#8217;s comforting that this is not a new problem.</p>
<p>So if being a Christian is more than about just waiting for death and eternity (because I want more than that), and God does intervene and bless us from time to time, sometimes deserved and sometimes not, I&#8217;m starting to think that I&#8217;d prefer the blessing that comes in the form of almost perfectly fitting maternity jeans found in an op-shop, or beautiful conversations with the retired folk who walk their dogs in the park that I track through on my way to work from the bus stop, any sort of connection with people than lots of money (although y&#8217;know God winning that Toyota Prius competition would be nice!).  And maybe in 30 more years I&#8217;ll be ugly to the prosperity doctriners who can all afford facelifts, but I&#8217;m hoping that the joy from living a life where money has no hold over me, with only one master who is loving and good, will be all the beauty that I need.  And who needs money when they have joy anyway?!</p>
<p>Sorry about the waffle.  Had to get it off my chest!</p>
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		<title>By: Greg the explorer</title>
		<link>http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-136</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg the explorer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 00:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The full paper is available from the NCCA web site (National Council of Churches in Australia)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The full paper is available from the NCCA web site (National Council of Churches in Australia)</p>
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		<title>By: Christina</title>
		<link>http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-135</link>
		<dc:creator>Christina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks Greg - I had not thought to look at the story of Lazarus from that perspective before - worth further thought.  Good redefinition of &#039;ugliness too - much better considered from the perspective of spiritual rather than physical. I think that nearly as bad as taking from the poor is simply failing to acknowledge them or our responsibility in their poverty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Greg &#8211; I had not thought to look at the story of Lazarus from that perspective before &#8211; worth further thought.  Good redefinition of &#8216;ugliness too &#8211; much better considered from the perspective of spiritual rather than physical. I think that nearly as bad as taking from the poor is simply failing to acknowledge them or our responsibility in their poverty.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg the explorer</title>
		<link>http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-134</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg the explorer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Sep 2006 07:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-134</guid>
		<description>Very thoughtful and inspired words - love the stuff from your comment posters as well.  It was Social Justice Sunday (the only day of the year we Anglicans think about it!...joking)yesterday; the theme was making indigineous poverty history.

Jonothan Inkpin and Graemme Mundine produced a paper entitled &lt;em&gt;The Lazarus Demand&lt;/em&gt; that explores the story of Lazarus and Jesus calling him out of the tomb and commanding his friends to unbind him in terms of indigineous poverty:

&lt;blockquote&gt;‘Unbind him, and let him go’ is a challenge made to all of us, and especially to those who
have power and wealth: which, in the context of Indigenous Australia, means most non-
Indigenous Australians. Use, and let go of your power, says God. It is not enough, says
Jesus, for the Word of God to be proclaimed and for Lazarus to respond. The Lazarus
Demand is not for an individual alone, but for the renewing of the whole community. It is
not merely an initiative of divine compassion. It involves human action and human
compassion. It calls for new relationships, involving rights, respect and reconciliation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

A rethinking of our responsibilities as Christians with our money is definitiely in order.  Ugliness is not what we look like to ourselves or to one another -but what we look like to God when in the words of St Ambrose: we who are rich come to church not to give to the poort, but to take from them</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very thoughtful and inspired words &#8211; love the stuff from your comment posters as well.  It was Social Justice Sunday (the only day of the year we Anglicans think about it!&#8230;joking)yesterday; the theme was making indigineous poverty history.</p>
<p>Jonothan Inkpin and Graemme Mundine produced a paper entitled <em>The Lazarus Demand</em> that explores the story of Lazarus and Jesus calling him out of the tomb and commanding his friends to unbind him in terms of indigineous poverty:</p>
<blockquote><p>‘Unbind him, and let him go’ is a challenge made to all of us, and especially to those who<br />
have power and wealth: which, in the context of Indigenous Australia, means most non-<br />
Indigenous Australians. Use, and let go of your power, says God. It is not enough, says<br />
Jesus, for the Word of God to be proclaimed and for Lazarus to respond. The Lazarus<br />
Demand is not for an individual alone, but for the renewing of the whole community. It is<br />
not merely an initiative of divine compassion. It involves human action and human<br />
compassion. It calls for new relationships, involving rights, respect and reconciliation.</p></blockquote>
<p>A rethinking of our responsibilities as Christians with our money is definitiely in order.  Ugliness is not what we look like to ourselves or to one another -but what we look like to God when in the words of St Ambrose: we who are rich come to church not to give to the poort, but to take from them</p>
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		<title>By: Christina</title>
		<link>http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-133</link>
		<dc:creator>Christina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-133</guid>
		<description>Good point about the disciples Reginald.  I reckon that they all would have been poor (in monetary terms) by the time they finished hanging out with Jesus...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point about the disciples Reginald.  I reckon that they all would have been poor (in monetary terms) by the time they finished hanging out with Jesus&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Reginald Pugh</title>
		<link>http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-132</link>
		<dc:creator>Reginald Pugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Sep 2006 13:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-132</guid>
		<description>This creeping-in doctrine is of the devil.. it is damnable. It is meant to bring in the last day heresies that base faith on worldly pleasures, than on God himself. I weep for thoese that teach this.


Why?

Jesus stated to the disciples,&quot;the poor&quot;(financially) you will always have with you. 

Some of the disciples were &quot;poor&quot; YES! If their financial state was why Jesus chose them then, contrary to the world salvation can be be bought with money.  I hope not! Now it is by grace that you are saved, not by works , less any man should boast. 

Based on the professions of disciples, we can sse the contrast, Luke was a physician (high class- income) Matthew the tax collector (middle class i income) and Peter the fishermen (lower class - income).

Their incomes was not the reason &quot;Jesus&quot; called them to be disciples. It was their spiritual condition of poverty. That is where they and we are made RICH! 

We need a balanced perspective on term BLESSINGS!

Paul charged us (Christians) that are rich (financially) to do good to the poor. That means we have poor (financially) Christians. Are they less of Christians? No.


I stroingly hope there are no ATMs , NASDAQs and rich and famous in heaven. Yes, heaven is adored with jewels that are priceless and abundantly decorations there. 


Though he created all things for us to enjoy...the  splintered  church has  taken the &quot;riches of this life to mean&quot; ,blessings in finance 90% and spiritually 10%. They make merchandise of the gospel for GAIN.  Tithing is used to fatten the salaries and the building fund. It is rarely used to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick. It is used to  scare people into beleiving if you don&#039;t do it.. you will be poor and therefore  CURSED. This is manipulation and a form of witchcraft. 

I believe when a ministry can give a vast majority of its tithe and offerengs to reach the poor in a balanced perspective and not making their &quot;ministries&quot; filthy lucre for the sake of creating mega churches : the reason to contribute to its growth... 

My prayer is this, Father forgive them for they no not what they do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This creeping-in doctrine is of the devil.. it is damnable. It is meant to bring in the last day heresies that base faith on worldly pleasures, than on God himself. I weep for thoese that teach this.</p>
<p>Why?</p>
<p>Jesus stated to the disciples,&#8221;the poor&#8221;(financially) you will always have with you. </p>
<p>Some of the disciples were &#8220;poor&#8221; YES! If their financial state was why Jesus chose them then, contrary to the world salvation can be be bought with money.  I hope not! Now it is by grace that you are saved, not by works , less any man should boast. </p>
<p>Based on the professions of disciples, we can sse the contrast, Luke was a physician (high class- income) Matthew the tax collector (middle class i income) and Peter the fishermen (lower class &#8211; income).</p>
<p>Their incomes was not the reason &#8220;Jesus&#8221; called them to be disciples. It was their spiritual condition of poverty. That is where they and we are made RICH! </p>
<p>We need a balanced perspective on term BLESSINGS!</p>
<p>Paul charged us (Christians) that are rich (financially) to do good to the poor. That means we have poor (financially) Christians. Are they less of Christians? No.</p>
<p>I stroingly hope there are no ATMs , NASDAQs and rich and famous in heaven. Yes, heaven is adored with jewels that are priceless and abundantly decorations there. </p>
<p>Though he created all things for us to enjoy&#8230;the  splintered  church has  taken the &#8220;riches of this life to mean&#8221; ,blessings in finance 90% and spiritually 10%. They make merchandise of the gospel for GAIN.  Tithing is used to fatten the salaries and the building fund. It is rarely used to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick. It is used to  scare people into beleiving if you don&#8217;t do it.. you will be poor and therefore  CURSED. This is manipulation and a form of witchcraft. </p>
<p>I believe when a ministry can give a vast majority of its tithe and offerengs to reach the poor in a balanced perspective and not making their &#8220;ministries&#8221; filthy lucre for the sake of creating mega churches : the reason to contribute to its growth&#8230; </p>
<p>My prayer is this, Father forgive them for they no not what they do.</p>
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		<title>By: Christina</title>
		<link>http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-131</link>
		<dc:creator>Christina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It disturbs me too, and feels like such a sell-out to our consumerist culture.  Maybe sell-out is the wrong word - perhaps it is more about wooing people by touting Christianity as the means to obtain the &quot;must-haves&quot; dictated by pop culture... BTW, I checked out your post - got me thinking further....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It disturbs me too, and feels like such a sell-out to our consumerist culture.  Maybe sell-out is the wrong word &#8211; perhaps it is more about wooing people by touting Christianity as the means to obtain the &#8220;must-haves&#8221; dictated by pop culture&#8230; BTW, I checked out your post &#8211; got me thinking further&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: The Merry Rose</title>
		<link>http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-130</link>
		<dc:creator>The Merry Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 06:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Christina, I have to admit that I am really diturbed by this message. And it just goes to show that human fraility is alive and well. I just hope and pray that not too many get hurt by this message.
As for sarcasm, don&#039;t worry, somethings can only be said that way so as for people to notice and respond.
I love this part of your last comment &quot;To know and be known by God… sounds good to me.&quot; That is what I desire - nothing more.

ps - I also have a &lt;a href=&quot;http://themerryrose.blogspot.com/2006/09/prosperity-doctrine-gets-turn-by-time.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;post&lt;/a&gt; about this via &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2006/09/does-god-want-you-to-be-rich.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Hamo&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christina, I have to admit that I am really diturbed by this message. And it just goes to show that human fraility is alive and well. I just hope and pray that not too many get hurt by this message.<br />
As for sarcasm, don&#8217;t worry, somethings can only be said that way so as for people to notice and respond.<br />
I love this part of your last comment &#8220;To know and be known by God… sounds good to me.&#8221; That is what I desire &#8211; nothing more.</p>
<p>ps &#8211; I also have a <a href="http://themerryrose.blogspot.com/2006/09/prosperity-doctrine-gets-turn-by-time.html" rel="nofollow">post</a> about this via <a href="http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2006/09/does-god-want-you-to-be-rich.html" rel="nofollow">Hamo</a></p>
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		<title>By: signposts.org.au &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A hit out at prosperity doctrine</title>
		<link>http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>signposts.org.au &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A hit out at prosperity doctrine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 05:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-129</guid>
		<description>[...] Read more here and make sure you bookmark the blog it is a good one. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read more here and make sure you bookmark the blog it is a good one. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Christina</title>
		<link>http://soulsojourn.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/reject-the-prosperity-doctrine-and-be-hit-with-the-ugly-stick/#comment-125</link>
		<dc:creator>Christina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 03:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for your comments, Seven Star Hand and Will.  I agree that God desires to bless us, but not necessarily in the format that appeals to our western consumerist ways of life.  love your last three sentences there Will - fortunately I am in no danger of contributing the beautiful celebrity pool! To know and be known by God... sounds good to me.  Thanks for your encouragement too...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments, Seven Star Hand and Will.  I agree that God desires to bless us, but not necessarily in the format that appeals to our western consumerist ways of life.  love your last three sentences there Will &#8211; fortunately I am in no danger of contributing the beautiful celebrity pool! To know and be known by God&#8230; sounds good to me.  Thanks for your encouragement too&#8230;</p>
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